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13 May 2012 @ 12:49 am
in a happy place  
I took myself to see the Avengers. It was brilliant. Joss Whedon, I missed you.

Thinky thoughts behind the cut. There are lots of them and spoilers abound; you have been warned:

The Girls

Did anyone else get sick of Scarlett Johansson being asked how it felt to be the only woman in the Avengers? I am all for the Black Widow being a role model, but this is a Joss Whedon film. ‘Surely,’ I thought, ‘there will be more women, even if Black Widow is the one that everyone sees.’

Jane is safe. Well, yes, but when she gets back she’s going to yell at all of you for not involving her in the physics and fun things. Darcy may hand her a taser. Yet, if Jane had been around Thor would have been utterly useless because he would have spent the whole film trying to make her safe, with her probably trying to keep him from making her safe, and that would not have been fun to watch. Also, to ‘make Jane safe’ they offered her an amazing job with amazing pay to tempt her elsewhere. She wasn’t ordered, she was tricked into it, and she went off to do incredible, smart things.

Pepper has 12%. Well, I didn’t actually calculate it, but she wasn’t around much. However, Pepper knows everything, decides she is not sticking around for this shit, and takes off for DC to do her own thing, leaving Tony to ‘do his homework’ even though he wants her to stay. Pepper has her own thing to be doing, thanks all the same. Later on, Tony tries to ring her, and I’m sure we all wished that she’d picked up, but Pepper was busy. True, watching tele and thinking ‘oh my god Tony’, but still. Busy. Leave a message.

Then we got Agent Hill. The person who captains the ship, who gets knocked down and then gets back up to shoot the guy aiming at her boss, who drives a truck head on into another truck because bad guys need stopping. Fury will miss Coulson, but Coulson says it’s alright. It is alright because Fury has Agent Hill. He lost his good eye, but hey, he has another one. Thank you for Agent Hill.

On your ship. Can we have a shout out for all the other women in SHEILD, please? Because I saw lots of them and they weren’t the ones playing computer games when they should have been working. And the council, I saw a women there. And at the end, on those TV screens, when a hell of a lot of people are badmouthing the Avengers, it’s a woman that stands up and says, ‘Hey, Captain America saved my life.’

Black Widow. The woman I expected to be the strong, kick-ass one? Absolutely is, but she’s more than that as well. She’s human, she gets scared, and she has a past. Also, she owns her job. See: ‘kidnap’ scene at the beginning. See: Natasha playing Loki to get the information she wants. And, perhaps most absolutely, see: Natasha at the end. Natasha is the one who decides, ‘sod this, I am switching your shit off.’ Sure, Cap gives her a lift and Slevig offers his help, but they are helping her and she’s the one that gets the job done. This woman has no superpowers, says that she doesn’t care about right and wrong, but when she decides to do something it damn well gets done.

A Shout Out

Also, as well as the woman at the end, hello German man who says ‘there are always men like you’ and Stan Lee disbelieving that there will ever be superheroes in New York. I like your style.

(Surprise Alexis Denisof is a bad guy! Obligatory Ex-Joss Whedon Character Insertion.)

Coulson, his name is Agent

Since we’re talking characters, hello Coulson.

Can I ask, did anyone else hear his Cellist girl referred to as ‘Janet’? Because I could have sworn that I did and Janet was Wasp Girl/Giant Girl in the Avengers in the comics… Just sayin’.

I liked Coulson, but I think more for this bonus scene and what I have read in fanfiction than for anything I have seen of him in the films. I understand the point of him fawning over Captain America – providing Cap backstory references, trying to make Coulson seem more human and relatable so we’ll care, setting up the cards for Fury to use, and probably more that I’m missing – but. The Coulson I like would shake Steve’s hand and then stare at a wall whilst thanking him for his service. They would have had an awkward conversation where Coulson believes Steve needs to hear how amazing Coulson thinks that he is, because Coulson has hero worship going on, whilst being fully aware of how boys-don’t-like-emotions-moment it all is. Alas, it came across too much like fawning. Sorry Phil.

I was not surprised to see him die. This being Joss Whedon, I had money on Coulson, Darcy, and (a little on) Pepper (because the fans would hate it, but he is Joss Whedon). I know the point: to make us believe that the worst can happen, it raises the stakes, and, as Coulson tried to say, because it would bring the team together. I did love that the writers and the character were so open about that, all ‘hey, yeah, that’s why this is happening.’

Old-fashioned Idea

Yes, Coulson dying gives the Avengers something to rally around, but if that’s the only reason that they come together then why would they come together ever again? It would make them just a group of people out for revenge, negate any friendships that formed, and would really be a smack in the face for poor Coulson, I think. It’s a push or a trigger, not a reason. I like then that other than Tony referring to him as ‘another guy Loki pissed off’, the Avengers don’t harp on about it. Let’s be fair, Steve and Bruce at least didn’t properly know him.

I didn’t like watching Fury push Coulson’s death at Steve and Tony, but it was in character for him to do so and perfectly them. I love it when you find yourself disliking something a character does rather than the writers making them do it, because the character is real. That said, I was glad when Tony walked out. It makes that point, that it’s not going to be all about Coulson.

Also, allow me to read more into this: people pushing Steve into things is not new. I’m sure as sure that everyone knows what lengths Captain America went to to get his friend Bucky back and how devastated he was later on, so I expect people to use this. Then Fury pushing doesn’t work and he refers to it as ‘an old-fashioned idea’. Because it would work on Steve, but not on Tony? Or because it doesn’t work on Steve either? Or because we’re beyond that kind of thing now. It’s not all going to be about revenge or Coulson.

Hulk, Smash!

All those fan discussions over which characters would win when pitted against each other in a fight and Joss Whedon delivers. Thor, Captain America, and Iron Man face off…and nobody really wins because they realise that it’s stupid and futile, oh boys so much amusement. Black Widow is not stupid and therefore afraid of Hulk. She is not, however, afraid of Hawkeye. She will hit him in the head, even after he seems to recognize her, because that’s what you do when you care. And Thor loves that has a Hulk to play with. Finally, someone on this planet that he doesn’t have to be gentle with.

We're A Time Bomb

Which brings me to the teambuilding. Seriously, I need a moment here to talk about how brilliant it is to watch a group of people who at first seem to be completely different become friends. This is where Avengers becomes more than an action movie: people.

Thor smiling when he fights the Hulk, because fighting is bonding where he’s from and here’s someone he doesn’t have to be gentle with. Then Hulk hitting Thor during the battle – just a punch between pals, y’know? Ha. Tony finds a friend in Bruce and I may have gone ‘awww’. Bruce doesn’t just not mind Tony prodding at him (physically and verbally), because Bruce has had a hell of a lot worse, but he actually seems to like it, being treated by Tony the same as Tony would treat anyone else. The moment where they say they’re already running the calculations and now they’re doing other stuff: the satisfied ‘we be so much smarter than you’ looks on their faces! Tony winding everyone up is always fun, but I was highly amused by the exchange with Steve in which Tony does not want to get the suit until, yeah, he really, really does. Natasha not being intimidated or fawning in the face of Captain America, Steve not being the only one who doesn’t understand cultural references with Thor around, Hulk catching Tony at the end, Steve giving Natasha a lift, Thor giving Steve a hand up… So many wonderful moments.

And they’re all more similar than they think. See Phase Two: Natasha knows that she never knows everything about SHIELD or if she does know it it’s SHEILD business; Bruce assumes there’s more because there always is; Tony suspects and goes digging; Steve says to follow orders and then takes a walk. Right then, you think they can work, even though we get ‘everyone argue now’ straight after.

(The end where they all stare down Loki – group photo! I need a screencap of that so I can icon and graphic the hell out of it.)

Finally, someone who speaks English

I love the theme of language in this film, so very much. How Tony and Bruce understand each other when they’re used to no one else getting it; how Natasha and Clint have their own language built on what experiences they share; how Thor speaks of things no one else has even seen; how Steve gets hugely excited when he gets a reference that Thor doesn’t. Then there’s that scene at the end, where they’re sending Thor and Loki off, and it’s silent with just Fury’s voiceover. Silent, and yet you can see so much communication going on, with Bruce and Tony getting in the car together, Steve looking content on his bike, Thor offering Loki the transporting device and Loki taking it, Natasha saying something to Clint that makes him smile… Suddenly words aren’t needed. Call it me reading too much into it, but communication achieved.

(Also, Hulk swinging Loki around like a ragdoll. Hilarious, but I’d like to add we have a guy of very few words being the one who finally stops Loki who is all about talk. And when he’s done we get two words. Enough said? Again, communication achieved?)

All The Worlds Know

Because it is about people, and you know what? Fury knows that too.

Fury wants Phase One to work and it isn’t because of sentiment, it’s because weapons alone aren’t enough. They nuked the bad guys, but that extra clip during the credits has one saying, “to face them is to court death”. He’s not saying, ‘hey, the Earth has bad weaponry, might want to back off.’ It’s ‘I do not want to mess with these people.’ Plus, all the people with all their opinions on the screens at the end, with their people power…

I’d say more, but really, isn’t it Joss Whedon all over that people can be weapons, but people are and can become more than weapons, that it’s the people you have to watch out for?

Love Is For Children

Okay, if we’re talking about people… I should point out that I’m not really a shipper, that I think Pepper and Natasha would get (and may have already gotten) on like a house on fire, and that I was already on the look out for the Clint/Natasha pairing since be_compromised. That said, oh you crazy kids.

When Natasha says to Loki about having red in her ledger, love being for children, and owing Clint a debt Loki calls her out by saying that wanting to clear her ledger is like a child praying. Now, Natasha’s acting to get information from Loki, yes, but. Later Natasha repeats to Clint, with a very determined look on her face, that she wants to clear her ledger. So, if love is for children and her desire to want to clear her ledger is childish… It’s just the look on her face when she tells him that, as one broken person saying something so strongly as if to make it so, as if it really means something, and since these two speak their own language maybe it means just that bit more than what it is.

It’s a language of ‘you know I do’ and Natasha whispering something to Clint that makes him smile at the end even when he’s stood right in front of and staring at Loki. It’s a language of being the two just humans on the team, the only two to actually follow SHIELD orders, being spies, of so much history, and of debt. I don’t if they’ve ever been romantically involved or if they ever would, but I thoroughly believe they are a part of each other in all the inseparable ways that count.

(Also, I can’t resist: ”You and I remember Budapest very differently.” Yes, Natasha, Clint doesn’t remember there being aliens in Budapest.)

Bad Guys

I was expecting Clint to be snarkier (because of the comics), but Tony already fills that role so Clint went in for brainwashed bad guy. You know, if Loki had a group of random people helping him they would suffer from ‘oh hey, random bad buys with no background, who cares, moving on.’ Clint I completely believe could be a bad guy force to be reckoned with. Slevig I completely believe could get all that science doing what it’s meant to. I didn’t ever think that they would fail, because I believed in their abilities as the good guys and I didn’t believe in them any less after Loki took them over.

As for Loki, I’ve read a few redeeming stories of Loki. I’m afraid after seeing this film that I just don’t buy it. I do buy Loki as a bad guy. It’s to do with when Tony is rambling on about Loki needing an audience when he and Steve are trying to figure out what Loki’s game is and the moment when Tony realises that Loki is using Stark Tower. Loki is like Tony in many ways. See: daddy issues, being ‘the smart kid’, being overshadowed, trying to claim a place in the world, and so on. Tony is the path that Loki didn’t take. Loki decides to squash all those who mock him and who he believes to be beneath him. Tony decides he will better than everyone else and untouchable by them (even though he has a soft underbelly). There’s another path Loki could have chosen and choices are important.

I can see where Loki comes from and it makes him real for me, not a cardboard cutout villain. Having met him in a previous film helps because there’s more space for that development, but still he’s more than a mwahaha villain and I don’t feel sorry for him. “He was adopted,” says Thor and it’s a funny moment, but there the man who still calls Loki a brother is saying, ‘I don’t understand him, he comes from a different place, I’m not defending him, and I don’t agree with him’.

(Joss Whedon is so good at using comedy for being more than just comic and for making comic moments actually really funny.)

The End

I was all for them moving in together, but there’s mileage in them splitting up for now and it’s realistic that they’d take time to get that close.

I made a friend on my cinema trip (as you do) from the US who said that over there an extra clip at the end had the team going for shawarma together after all. I was not impressed that we didn’t get to see that. It’s bad enough that our version is called ‘Avengers Assemble’ because apparently we might be stupid enough to confuse it with a 1960s tv show and 1990s film… I youtubed and I know it’s only a few seconds, but if/when footage shows up that is not grainy as all hell someone please link me?

Because up yours, Fury, they’re not going to come back ‘when they’re needed’, they’re going to come back for food and company and Tony’s going to say, ‘hey, I fixed the tower with Bruce’s help and it has all this cool shit you’d love’ and they all move in together after all, because I take that ‘A’ left on Stark Tower at the end as a promise, damnit!

(Although, really they went for food straight after the battle because they’re all still in uniform, and it was really awkward with destruction two blocks away and everyone staring at them and them not knowing what to say to each other, but they did need to eat and they kind of felt they owed Tony one, after the whole nearly closing a portal on him and letting him die. Steve did not like the food.)


If you also have thinky thoughts, care to share?

If thinky thoughts are not your thing: I knew I would love it for the fun dialogue, the character development, the booms, and the Joss Whedon. I did not know I would love it quite this much. Watch it. You will enjoy.
 
 
feeling: geekygeeky
 
 
 
sugar_fey: avengers: hawkeye/black widow collagesugar_fey on May 13th, 2012 05:33 am (UTC)
I'm so glad you can finally join the squee with fully informed thinky-thoughts! *twirls you*

I wasn't expecting to get involved with the fandom at all, let alone get an OTP straight away. But the moment I saw the Natasha/Clint (personally I'm fond of BlackHawk as a pairing name :P) scene and the way she said "You know that I do," I was sold. They also kind of reminded me of Mal and Zoe, but with more UST.

Yeah, I don't get the Loki sympathy/woobifying, either. He was relatable in Thor but his actions in Avengers definitely made him a bad guy. I read some comments from people who found his attempt to intimidate Natasha hot, and I was thinking "Really? The scene where he threatened to have her tortured, possibly raped and murdered by her best friend?"

Fandom can be scary sometimes.


workerbee73 on May 13th, 2012 10:47 am (UTC)
Okay, comment-crashing on the Loki stuff:

I'm definitely not in the woobie camp, but having seen the movie a couple of times now, I feel like they are pretty strongly implying a redemption arc for him in the next film. I don't think we're talking rainbows and kittens and complete reformation, but it seems pretty strongly hinted at-- especially in the scene with Natasha. She tells him her story of how she used to be a bad guy, but someone gave her a chance to make a different choice (Clint) and it changed her forever. And while she's still ambiguous on a lot of the right and wrong stuff, it's clear she's all about fighting for the good guys. That convo, with those two people in particular-- I can't think that was an accident. I'm betting that Thor is going to offer him a similar chance and that he might just end up being integral to defeating the Next Big Bad that's coming their way. And while it's never going to be sunshine and roses and he's never going to be BFF's with the rest of the gang, I think there's room for him to still turn things around--or at least to try and begin to make amends for all the bad shit he's done. Does that make any sense?
sugar_fey: avengers: black widowsugar_fey on May 13th, 2012 11:48 am (UTC)
I see your point. And Joss has definitely done redemption arcs with great success in the past (Spike and Anya come to mind), though that was over a period of several seasons of tv show and they still had moments where they slipped up.

I admit most of my DO NOT WANT reaction to Loki has to do with my PTSD issues, I found some of his behaviour triggering. Hence my twitchiness when people fangirl that very same behaviour. His threat to Natasha was written in a way that it could be a thinly disguised rape threat, and I have a knee-jerk reaction against people excusing sexual violence, including threats thereof. Also, mind control has always freaked me out.

If they do a redemption arc for Loki I'll be interested to see how they do it. I'm sure Joss could pull it off. That being said, I'm much more interested in Black Widow's redemption arc, which I really hope they continue in the next films (I can haz Black Widow movie?).

Edited at 2012-05-13 11:50 am (UTC)
workerbee73 on May 13th, 2012 11:53 am (UTC)
No, I hear you. I'm not particularly cool with fangirling abusive/threatening behavior and writing it off in the woobie column either. Let's call the violent, misogynistic shit out for what it is and not glorify it for goodness sakes. Loki can be a compelling and interesting character without having to praise what I think was probably his most reprehensible moment.

I want her arc too! I want to know everything Black Widow. Gah. Joss did such a good job with her character. Just can't get enough. ;)
sugar_fey: string of lightssugar_fey on May 13th, 2012 12:09 pm (UTC)
Yeah, a lot of people have been saying "Oh, that scene with Loki and Black Widow was so hot!!!!!!!!" Which, um, kinks are fine and all, but can we at least call out misogynistic shit for what it is?

That scene kicked Loki firmly into the 'villain' catagory for me, which was a great move writing wise because he didn't seem like much of a threat until then. In fact, the scary one was Clint! And then that moment happened and I was like "Okay, Loki's legitimately terrifying now."

I can't help wondering how dark Joss would have gone had it been one of his tv shows rather than a big budget Hollywood film. He's gone to some pretty dark places with all of them, and I think if he'd had the same freedom with Avengers Clint may have tried to kill Natasha as per Loki's command. She would still kick his butt/save him, though, because Natasha is just that awesome and she ain't going to be shoved in no fridge.
workerbee73 on May 13th, 2012 12:39 pm (UTC)
I can't help wondering how dark Joss would have gone had it been one of his tv shows rather than a big budget Hollywood film. He's gone to some pretty dark places with all of them, and I think if he'd had the same freedom with Avengers Clint may have tried to kill Natasha as per Loki's command. She would still kick his butt/save him, though, because Natasha is just that awesome and she ain't going to be shoved in no fridge.

I think the potential would definitely be there to go very dark. And a part of me kind of wants this in fic form just to see how it would all play out (deftly handed, of course, and with respect). But it's an incredibly compelling, fascinating, horrible premise.
inkvoices: hp:quote epitaphinkvoices on May 13th, 2012 09:11 pm (UTC)
on loki and clint...
Joining convo! *grins*


I read Loki and redemption differently. I think when Natasha tells Loki about someone giving her a different chance it’s a call back to all the times Thor keeps telling Loki to come home, that he can come home, and Loki keeps choosing the different path. That said, I can absolutely see Loki, perhaps with prodding or support from Thor, being instrumental in saving the worlds when the chips are down, BUT I think Loki will use that, it’ll be part of a play not him joining the good guys. It’ll be ‘Loki saved the day and we still hate him and that’s okay because he’s BAD, isn’t life bloody complicated?!’

Loki is scary for me because he’s like a child having a screaming temper tantrum about how life isn’t fair, but then he has the power to make one god-awful mess. A three-year-old who could kill. Not that I’m saying he doesn’t know right from wrong, more that somewhere Odin is shaking his head and saying to his wife, “I don’t remember teenagers being this shitty when we were his age” and Thor saying, “Father, for Earth, ‘shitty’ is going to get them all killed, wise up!”

that scene with Loki and Black Widow was so hot!!!! If this happened to them in reality they would either think differently or be shown to need some help *sigh*. The ‘hot’ part of that scene? Was “thank you for your cooperation” :D

Well, Clint did try to kill Natasha, and not because Loki told him to, but just because she was in his way, like she meant nothing, a bug to be squashed, and what does that say about Loki’s power and how devastating would that be to Natasha?

How dark? Hmm, would dark be that Clint never completely shakes it off…? What is ‘dark’ here? Do we mean more blood, guts, pain type of thing? Or emotional ouch? Because Joss could kill us (and often has) with emotional ouch. Can’t do that in the first of what’s probably going to be a collection of films though, right? Gotta build up to the ouch *grins*. Guess it depends if Joss is going to stay on board.
workerbee73 on May 13th, 2012 11:29 pm (UTC)
Re: on loki and clint...
What worries me for future installments is that Joss said in an interview when they asked him about A2, he said it was going to get more "personal and painful." As if A1 was the warm-up. O_o

But at least we have a couple of years to prepare ourselves. ;)
inkvoices: avengers:teaminkvoices on May 14th, 2012 05:03 am (UTC)
Re: on loki and clint...
Well, it is Joss. I still have the wibbly feeling that Pepper, being one of the few characters from the other marvel films to show up in Avengers, is in danger of being Jossed, and it sprung to mind again when you said 'personal', because Tony's the one that uses that phrasing in the film, that it's 'personal'...

Years?! Don't say nasty things like that :P Iron Man 3 for next year...
inkvoices: avengers:natashainkvoices on May 13th, 2012 09:09 pm (UTC)
on clint/natasha...
BlackHawk makes me think of a war film and BlackEye makes me think of the Florence and the Machine song, Kiss With A Fist. I think I’ll stick with Clint/Natasha, because of them not being superheroes and the people who they are being separate from the costumes and (metaphorical?) masks that they wear :)

Mal and Zoe. I hadn’t thought of that, but yeah, I can see it. Having survived, or working on surviving, something together that outsiders are never going to be able to get.
workerbee73 on May 13th, 2012 10:38 am (UTC)
Okay, first of all, I ADORE your thoughts.

Second, I wrote an epic response that LJ TOTALLY ATE. **shakes fists of impotent rage**

But in a nutshell, I love your analysis of the women in the film, their independence, their existence separate and apart from any man. And strangely, Natasha actually skirts the edge of that trope the most (as her introduction to the story is entirely to do with Barton, and the story makes it very clear that she is all about getting him back--whether for purely professional reasons is, however, left up to the viewer's interpretation.) But Joss also makes sure to subvert this expectation in the scene with Loki, and he does it beautifully, and he always makes sure that we know she's oscillating between the macro "red ledger" level and the mirco "I'm pretty much in love with my partner but I'm not ready to admit that to anyone, least of all myself" level. It's a really beautiful way to handle her character; she's never weak, but she's also never anything less than human.

And regarding Clint, I expected him to be more smartass too, but between the baddie stuff and the Tony being the resident smartass, I can see why they played him a little more Clint Eastwood. He so reminds me of the hero of a classic Western it's not even funny; I can't help it, it's just the lens through which I see his character. And efficient and a force to be reckoned with? Hell yes. It's scary how much shit he manages to fuck up and how he basically runs the bad guy show while Loki's off on distraction duty. Very capable and very badass, and I think it was an interesting and very cool way to showcase his character in the first half of the film.

And OMG, language. Yes. A thousand times yes. Because really, what is language? What's the point? It's a mechanism for understanding and, more importantly, for being understood. And that's what's all these incredibly lonely, incredibly isolated people crave. Even if they don't even know it yet. And it's a beautiful thing to watch that come together.

Hey... wow. I think I just retyped my entire comment. That's how much I'm loving these thoughts. Oh, and I know you said you weren't really a shipper, so I have to ask, are you feeling the C/N feelings more or less now that you seen the movie? I think on of the brilliant things Joss id with their characterization was all the ambiguity layered in. You can read their connection as deeply as you want, but you're not inundated with shippy stuff, which I kind of love. Their relationship (whether gen or shippy) exists in the negative space around them, in the way they look at each other and the fragments of words which have become their own special shorthand. And while I think there are serious feelings (accompanied by mega denial on her part and probably reserved/shelved pining on his (but that's just my headcanon)), it never becomes obtrusive. And I think that's a sign of the best kind of ship, at least for me. All that delightful possibility. ;)






Edited at 2012-05-13 10:41 am (UTC)
inkvoicesinkvoices on May 13th, 2012 08:54 pm (UTC)

Aww, you like my brain *grins*. I type out long things on Word first to avoid it getting swallowed. Also, because the spell check on LJ hates me :S

Yes! I love how every woman in this film has their own thing to be doing; that if they’re not around it’s not because they’ve been locked away in a safehouse to twiddle their thumbs. That’s an interesting thought, that Natasha, supposedly the strongest front female character, is the one that comes the closest to having a guy be at the centre of her actions and purpose. But then that’s where we have to see Clint as a person rather than just a guy. I think if they’d had a sexual or obviously romantic moment during the film then that would have taken away from Natasha.

“You and I remember Budapest very differently.” At the moment I can totally see him as a character from a Western! He sounds a bit scared, I think, and who wouldn’t, but it’s kind of a last stand, quick draw, job that needs doing… Yes, I can see it :D how he basically runs the bad guy show while Loki's off on distraction duty - THIS, YES, because Loki is the distraction that Clint needs so that Clint can get the job done, it’s Clint that’s doing. Can you imagine if SHIELD didn’t have the cube and Loki appeared somewhere else and the people he picked to help him were different? SHIELD has shot itself in the foot, much as it does by working on weapons that run off the cube…

Love, love, love the use and theme of language :D

Okay, when I say I’m not a shipper I mean that pairing off characters doesn’t interest me. Character dynamics, and any kind of dynamics, does. For me Avengers is an ensemble film. I love ensembles and I love what Joss Whedon does with them. Take Firefly, with a crew that’s a film, and the Scoobie’s in Buffy, the gang in Angel, the house in Dollhouse. What I love is the many layers and interactions between characters in ensembles, how smaller interactions affects the group as a whole, the dynamics. What I like about Clint and Natasha is that they have no superpowers, they’re a part of SHIELD and things in a way that none of the others are, they have their own language and morality and a different kind of experience to everyone else. They’re different and I love their characters individually, but then they’re also this separate little group within the group as a whole and I find that fascinating.

Also, everyone else has had a movie. We get some Clint and Natasha backstory to make up for that in he Avengers, but they’re really the two with the most room to play and they’re all shiny and new :D
workerbee73 on May 14th, 2012 01:38 am (UTC)
But then that’s where we have to see Clint as a person rather than just a guy. I think if they’d had a sexual or obviously romantic moment during the film then that would have taken away from Natasha.

Oh I agree. And that's why it was a fantastic choice to keep their connection ambiguous. If they'd been all overtly lovey-dovey in the recovery scene, I don't think I would have been half as intrigued/smitten by them as a pairing. What's left unsaid/not done is always so much more interesting. ;)

And yes, I absolutely love the ensemble feel too, and I have a great deal of love for all of the characters, even if I've been kind of stuck in Master Assassins land. I think I connect with C/N especially because of their humanness and also because of their deep internal bond that separate and apart even within this group.
inkvoicesinkvoices on May 14th, 2012 05:06 am (UTC)
I think there would have been a danger of reducing either or both of them to a 'love interest' and we already have Pepper in that role for the film. Also, I think that they're complicated people and making how they interact, especially this first film we see them together in, any less than that would be a crying shame.

They have this bond and a lot of what bonds them is different to everyone else in the group, but then the group is bonding, and there are other little splinter groups, like Banner and Stark geeking out, and so much complicated interlinking. I love it :D